Jason Swenk, Digital Marketing Agency Advisor, Coach, and Mentor, provides a comprehensive framework to expedite agency growth and life-cycle agency management. In this podcast, he covers:
- Vision: Where do I want to go and why do I want to do that? The importance and application of passion, knowledge, and expertise.
- Position: Why specialize in one client-focused niche, master it, and then port that knowledge to other niches.
- Defining your Offering: What are you offering and what is your price? Radical thoughts on pricing strategies that will maximize profits?How to figure out what to charge, when, and why it really isn’t about the money.
Jason also defines the critical mass for selling your agency at a profit, why you should say “No” to Earn-Outs, and how to handle RFPs and get the contract . . . at the right price.
To learn more about Jason’s online agency system training program for scaling your agency and increasing profits, go to: https://jasonswenk.com/ or google “Swenk It”.
ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m your host, Rob Kischuk, and I’m joined today by Jason Swenk. Jason is the agency advisor and mentor who guides marketing agencies through a proven framework for growing their agency faster. Thanks for joining us, Jason.
JASON: Hey, man. Thanks for having me on.
ROB: Great to have you. This is a little bit of a first for us. We haven’t had someone who isn’t actively involved in an agency. I think people will come to understand in a moment why you, in fact, may bring a very interesting and broad perspective that maybe someone who’s caught up in their own agency wouldn’t. Why don’t you tell us a little bit more about yourself and your background?
JASON: Yeah, definitely. I started an agency by accident in 1999. One of my best friends looked like Justin Timberlake, so I created a spoof website called “N’Shit,” and it got popular. Then people started asking me to design websites. So we started designing websites back in ’99 when Al Gore invented the internet.
We just started getting bigger and bigger clients. Fast forward 5 years—we started working with companies like Water.com. We started doing everything for Lotus Cars, Hitachi. We developed LegalZoom. We worked with all these major brands. In 2012, a bigger agency came along and wanted to buy us, and then we sold.
We grew from a very small team to a rather large team over time, and then, after I sold, I didn’t know what I wanted to do. I was kind of like every agency owner out there, being like “I’m going to sell one day, I’m going to go develop a product because that’s where it is.” I quickly did that. I developed an iPhone app, and I realized that the grass is greener on the side that you water.
I was just lucky enough that some of my old competition started reaching out to us and going, “How’d you grow your agency so fast? How’d you sell?” I started helping them out for free and just loved it. Then I started really dissecting what made us successful at the agency and what I would have done differently. I started developing systems that I could actually show people, and that’s where we are today.
ROB: That’s exciting. After you were bought, after you were out of that acquisition, were you ever tempted to do it all over again?
JASON: Oh yeah. I had a 2-year non-compete, so I was fully ready after I did my iPhone app—that I hated —it took pictures of everything you ate and gave you a visualization. I was like, “I don’t even do this. I can’t sell something I don’t do. All right, I’m going to create an agency.” It was about a year and a half, with about 6 months to go on my non-compete, and I was about to start up another agency and I was getting ready. Then I started helping other agency owners out.
I thought, “I actually like this better. I’ve already got the tattoo for creating an agency and selling it, so why do I want to get another tattoo? Let’s get another tattoo in something else.” [laughs]
ROB: And now you’ve got some extra stripes there. You mentioned that, in dealing with these agencies you work with, you’ve developed some processes and programs. What are the things that have come to clarity for you, that you’ve been able to say, “Here’s a nice package of knowledge that you should know,” to someone running an agency?
JASON: I realize that we’re all accidental agency owners. We’re all accidental entrepreneurs. We knew how to do something cool around marketing or design or development, and then someone offered us money for it, so we’re like, “Okay, cool, let’s do this. I don’t have to work for the man.” So we’re all accidental.
But it takes us years and years—sometimes a lot longer than that—to figure out where we need to go and to get that clarity of what we are creating and being able to share that with our team. I think a lot of your listeners—maybe even you, Rob; I know this happened to me—when we started building our team, I would always have people coming to me for every single damn decision. I was like, “What the heck is going on? Just make a decision.”
But I didn’t give them the ammo that they needed, so they were making decisions based on what was better for themselves rather than for the organization because they had no idea where the boat was going. I didn’t give them a direction. If they had known the boat was going east, then they could make a course correction. I never gave them the vision of where the company was going, so they didn’t know how to make a decision. And I didn’t know what to say “no” to or what to say “yes” to.
I realized that the foundational system was clarity, of figuring out, “Where do I want to go and why do I want to do that?” That’s the driving force behind everything.
I’ll give you a scenario of how this works. We were developing a blog post for the best conferences for digital agencies to go to. There were three conferences on there that I just didn’t like—I just didn’t like the people. I went to my team and said, “No, we’re not listing them out.”
They said, “Jason, that doesn’t match the vision. Our vision is to be the #1 resource in the world for agency owners and provide a resource we wish we’d had.” They recited that back to me, and I said, “You’re right. Keep them in there. It’s better for the audience, and I’ll have to just live with it.” It gives the ammo to your team to make the right decision based on where you’re going. So I realized that that was one foundational system.
There are two other foundational systems, and I can go over the other ones too. Positioning. Every agency positions themselves as the star in someone else’s story. They talk about their portfolio, they talk about their awards, they talk about their people.
Newsflash: No one gives a crap about any of that. They care about themselves. They care about, “Do you understand what we’re going through? Can you actually help us?”
You can change this perspective by saying, “I’m your trusted advisor. I’m your guide to help you transform from where you’re at to where you’re going and to ask questions,” which puts the attention back on them.
Then the third one is around your offering and figuring out what I need to charge and when I need to charge it rather than going for the jugular right away. I love agencies to death, and I used to do this—I can make fun of all of you. If you go in for the retainer, you go after the jugular. You’re like, “This retainer is $50,000 a month.” You haven’t built up enough trust yet.
You have to figure out what’s the right offering at the right time so then you can make more money and help the client out.
ROB: When you talk about positioning, I think one thing that’s a very common theme seen with agencies—I’d rewind a little bit even to Solar Velocity. How much of your footprint was geographically-aligned with you, and how much was more national in scope? We’ll start there.
JASON: This comes back to when you’re positioning, not positioning to, “I do everything for everybody.” When we were just a web design shop, we only won local business. When we started having a specialty and started positioning ourselves around that specialty and the niche we had, we started winning national and international business.
ROB: What I see quite often is people positioned as: “They’re the best Denver-based digital marketing shop,” “They are the best PPC shop in Dallas,”—that sort of thing. You mentioned you were able to elevate, in the case of Solar Velocity, by articulating yourself differently. How much of that specialization—is that a mistake? Does it trap you in a local maximum of what you can be? What are your thoughts there?
JASON: You can never drill down far enough. I would tell you, if you said “I want to be the best pay-per-click agency in Denver,” you’re still too broad. Pay-per-click is so broad right now. Everybody can do pay-per-click, or they say they can. You have to pick a vertical and say “I’m the best pay-per-click agency for lumber dealers.” I have a client that goes after lumber dealers and is just crushing it. I have clients that go after dentists. I have clients that go after builders or manufacturers. They just become the best at that.
Then, what you can do—and this is what we did at Solar Velocity—is start figuring out what’s working in that one niche, and then once you have that mastered, start applying that to other ones.
For example, Facebook. Facebook didn’t come out saying “I want to rule the world” right off the bat like MySpace. They went after Harvard students and then Ivy League schools and then high school and then ex-boyfriends and girlfriends stalking each other. They just started getting bigger and bigger and adding niches after.
The problem is, I think, the smaller agencies look at the bigger agencies going, “You say you do everything, so we have to do everything.” But what you really need to do is look at how the bigger agencies made it big. Model what they did to get there. If you look at it, they probably had a particular niche and they just kept building upon that.
ROB: You mentioned everybody can do pay-per-click, but pay-per-click for lumber or dentists, may be very specific. What are some niches that you think may be under-optimized right now?
JASON: Well, here’s the deal too. I always love those courses out there that say, “Here are the most highly paid niches for agencies.” They’re full of crap, because no one can help you—not even me. I can’t tell you what your niche should be.
You have to answer these two or three questions: “What do you have passion in?” “What do you have knowledge in?” “What do you have expertise in?” Then decide that for yourself and figure out the “why.”
My client with the lumber dealers—I was like, “Lumber dealers? Are you going after the people in Alaska’s last frontier? There’s like three people. Why are you going after this?” He had a really amazing story. He told me, “My father-in-law is in the lumber dealer market, and I thought it was really cool that my wife’s grandfather planted the tree, and then her dad cut the tree down, and the sawmill is making our kid’s bed.” There was a story behind it of the “why.” Then he was able to go after all the other lumber dealers and say, “Hey, I understand you and I can actually help you out.” Then he starts blowing out his competition.
I always tell people, my competition is cat videos and procrastination, because no one can emulate what you’re doing. You want to just drill down far enough that when someone hears your content or comes across your website or your materials, they feel like, “Dude, you’ve been tapping my office.” You can only figure that out when you drill down far enough.
You can always expand later on, but the biggest mistake is not drilling down far enough, or drilling down on a local market.
I had a client in New Mexico. I just drove across country to Moab, so I went through to New Mexico. New Mexico is not the richest town. They’re an agency in New Mexico, and they said, “I can’t charge the prices you’re telling me because the local market won’t bear it.” I responded, “Think bigger. Go outside the local market, but pick a niche in a particular vertical or a certain toolset.
If you’re not going to pick a vertical, you can pick a service, but it has to be an upcoming service or an upcoming technology. Back in the day we picked Sitefinity. We became the best partner in the world for Sitefinity. It was a content management system. Then we did that around SharePoint. We picked the technology route.
Or if you’re an agency and there’s an up-and-coming VR, you could be a VR agency. You can’t be a Snapchat agency right now because it’s not a new technology anymore. That’s been around. Or WordPress. Does that make sense?
ROB: Yeah, absolutely. I think one risk that I’ve seen some people navigate well and some people not is when to realize that they have maybe overcommitted or when they’ve grown past that initial commitment to a technology. We talked recently to an agency that committed really early on to Infusionsoft, but they have grown out of it and passed it. Another couple of agencies I can think of started off being very, very mobile-heavy, and in both cases they’ve grown well and passed it.
What signals should someone be looking for, in your experience, that would tell them to move on or just realize that the wave that they were riding or trying to ride is no longer there for them?
JASON: Both when you do the forecast for revenue and profit and when you see the market going. When you first start—let’s use your Infusionsoft example. Infusionsoft mainly goes after really small businesses. Let’s say you start there, which is perfectly fine, but you want to keep upping your client game. You want to keep getting bigger and bigger clients.
Well, the bigger clients that you want to go after are not on Infusionsoft. That would mean I need to switch to a HubSpot or a Marketo or whatever other bigger systems are out there. That’s when I would start switching.
But, when you’re doing all this, it’s kind of like the Vegas buffets; you’ve got to try everything and see what you like and what you don’t like and how your taste changes for your future. But it all goes back to clarity of going, “What do I want to create? What does life look like in the next 2-3 years? What do my clients look like?—Literally describe them. How much revenue do I want to generate?”
Then start working backward and mapping out a plan. If I want to go after the type of clients that are over $100 million to a billion in revenue, what types of technologies do they use? What publications are they reading? What technologies are they using? What conferences do they go to? Then start building a plan from that.
ROB: It sounds like, in terms of identifying your niche, you have a top-down approach—which is thinking about where you want to be and building the stairwell to get there—but also a bottom-up approach, which is to know yourself. The niche that you choose has to be authentic to yourself, or else it’s just not going to work. Is that kind of what you’re getting at?
JASON: You got it. You can’t make decisions on money and say, “This is the most profitable niche.” If you do that—it goes back to one of my favorite movies, a movie about Billy Beane—Moneyball. It’s a cool concept. He said, “When I’m putting a winning team together, I’m not just trying to buy wins. How do I work myself backwards? I need to buy people getting on base. If I can buy people getting on base, then I can start focusing on getting people from first base to second base to third to home. I’m not really buying players; I’m buying runs. I’m buying wins that way.”
The cool thing about the movie, too, is he got offered the GM position to apply this concept to the Boston Red Sox, and he said, “I’m never going to make a decision based on money again,” because of when he was in baseball.
It’s the same thing here. Do not make a decision based on money, because when things get tough—which they will—and you have to really dig deep and you have to put a lot of time and effort in it, if you don’t have passion behind it, it’s not worth doing. You’re not going to commit to it and you’re going to fail at it. Business is not all sunshine and rainbows. You have to really focus on what you love.
And it comes across. When you talk to someone who’s passionate about their business, you can tell—versus someone who’s just in it for the dollars.
ROB: That sounds like a really significant potential pitfall. You have really good perspective across lots of agencies. What are some other common mistakes and pitfalls that you see people falling into? You don’t have to name names.
JASON: I’ll think of something right now. Especially if you’re an agency, if you’ve ever put a ton of time into a proposal and then the client goes completely silent on you, it’s pretty frustrating. I remember this.
One of the things I think you can do in order to stop this is to not send the proposal anymore. This means not doing the big RFPs. RFP stands for Real F’ing Problem or Requesting For Punishment. So I’d always look at RFPs like there are two winners to every RFP: there’s the one that wins it and the first one out.
The reason why I’m saying don’t send the proposal anymore is, make sure you’re always reviewing the proposal with the client, not even sending it ahead of time. When we started doing this, we started winning proposals at over 80%. We filtered out the time-wasters, the fishers, the fish that would always get off, the ones who would say “just send me the proposal” often needed another proposal, but had already chosen someone else.”
If I could meet with them, I could review the proposal with them, overcome any objections that they had—and I knew who was serious. That’s a huge thing I see a lot of agencies doing. They’re sending the proposal ahead of time, which means their prospect could go silent. You spent all that time on that proposal, so you should only do it with the serious ones.
ROB: One thing you mentioned earlier is chasing retainers, and I think another thing that agencies can chase is those agency of record (AOR) designations. How is that changing? Is the AOR process, is the RFP process changing? Or is some of it evergreen and almost timeless in nature right now?
JASON: I think it’s all changing. I always laughed at the agency of record. Yeah, they named you an agency of record, but they still can go and use anybody else. My thing was, as long as I’m delivering value to you, you’re going to keep using me.
You have to be that specialty. I always laugh when people say “I’m the agency of record for everything.” I’m like, “You can’t do everything.” Literally. You look at some of the biggest agencies in the world, and they still can’t do everything. You look at VaynerMedia, they’re really good at social, so they just keep doing social. They shouldn’t bridge into all these other areas. Keep focused on your specialty because that is where you can dominate. You’ve built a $100 million business.
I always laugh at the agency of record thing. I used to chase it, too. That’s why I can laugh at it. I’m looking back now going, “No, it doesn’t matter.”
ROB: As someone who has been through the process of being acquired as an agency, how would you encourage people to think about that? At some point, that becomes a goal. When did you realize that was a viable goal, and how would you think about it if you were starting all over again? You’ll know better where the inflection point is—let’s say you get to 30, 50, 100 people—how would you think about it differently?
JASON: When I first started in ’99—this was in the dot-com era—all my friends had these technology companies they were selling for a gazillion dollars. I was like, “That’s going to be us.” Then the dot-bomb happened and I was like, “Oh . . . okay.”
But we kept growing and a lot of the bigger agencies went out. I said, “Let’s change our focus. I don’t want to sell. Let’s just build it where it’s a profitable lifestyle business. I wanted to create some millionaires within the agency, kind of like Microsoft. They had more millionaires in their company than professional athletes.” I was like, if I can be significant to our employees and make them millionaires, that would be really cool.
So I started focusing on that, and then around the 2011 era we started having a lot of people coming to us and going, “Hey, have you ever thought about selling?” I’m like, “Maybe—if it’s the right time, the right offer and that kind of stuff.” In the very beginning I had intents to sell, but then it kind of changed and then it changed again. It was like, “I’ve been doing this thing for 12 years—what’s next?” I didn’t know what was next, honestly, when I created the stupid iPhone app. So we started going through that.
What I would do over again—the one thing I’ll tell everybody: there are lots of agencies that sell but don’t make any money off of it. It’s just like a rollup. I don’t count that as an acquisition. It’s just like you went out of business and someone took over your clients.
But I looked at an interesting stat. It said, one-fourth of 1% of agencies are bought for a profit. I want that to resonate with everybody. Out of 400 agencies, 1 will sell for a profit. I always tell people, treat it like you’ll never sell and you’ll be a lot happier. Just start putting a ton of money away.
What I’ve found is, unless you can get over the $10 million mark, you’re really in no man’s land. If you’re under the $2 million mark, there are lots of midsize agencies that will acquire you, but you’re not going to make walkaway money, like, “Yeah, I won the lottery.” You’ll just be like, “Yeah, I’ve got to go get a job.” That’s not good, right?
From the $2 million to about the $9 million, you’re kind of in no man’s land because you’re still too small for the private equity companies or a bigger agency to buy you. It just doesn’t make any sense. There are some scenarios that come in, but you’ve got to get over a certain hump there.
Then, the other thing I’ll tell you that I wish I knew is: Never do an earn-out or expect an earn-out. It cost me millions. [laughs] Let my million dollar mistake help you. Always be fine with the cash up front and all the other stuff. And I was fine with that. I said it cost me millions; don’t feel bad about me. I still did well. So be happy with the cash and everything else that you get and just always treat it like the earn-out would have never happened.
ROB: Explain that a little bit. Explain an earn-out, and explain why it can be dangerous. It probably sounds nice. Why do people ask for that?
JASON: What an acquirer will do is say, “Hey, we value your agency at X.” Let’s say they say, “We value your agency at $10 million.” Immediately you go, “Holy cow, I’m going to get $10 million.”
Back up your horses. That doesn’t happen. Then they’re going to say, “We don’t have $10 million to give to you right now, so we’ll give you $4 million cash, and then the rest of the $6 million is going to be on earn-out over time based on performance.”
Now, here’s the deal. You’ve always been able to hit your goals because you control everything. You’re in charge. When a company comes in and buys you, you’re the highest paid meeting coordinator in the world. You don’t control a lot of the things that could affect your earn-out. You’re not in control anymore. Even though you’ve hit every single goal in your life, it’s going to be very challenging to hit the next one.
So that’s why they do that. They’re basically paying you on your profit and your performance for them buying you. I don’t think that’s fair.
One of my clients will never work again. He just sold his agency 2 months ago, will never ever work again if he doesn’t want to, and he was able to walk away the next day. But the first offer they gave was a huge earn-out, like 25% in cash, work with the business for 2 years, and have an earn-out. I was like, “No, no, no, no, no!” So he said, “No, no, no,” and he was able to get a fat check of over eight figures and walk away the next day. But you have to be willing to say “no.”
Here’s the other big thing. If you ever start going through the process of an acquisition, please, please always think it will never happen. The biggest mistake that everybody makes going through this? They start counting all the stuff they’re going to buy later on, they take their foot off the gas, and then the deal falls through and their business goes under.
ROB: If that starts to leak out, I imagine there’s also—I don’t know if it’s more or less in an agency versus a startup—team impact of that as well. In a startup, people start dreaming about what they’re going to buy with their equity. In an agency, they may just worry about their future. How do you think about that?
JASON: Yeah, you definitely don’t want other people, especially your employees, to find out, because no one likes change. Your team is with you, your clients are with you because you’re there—and the team and the culture you’ve built. If you get acquired, that puts everything at risk. They think major change is going to happen, and people can jump ship. So you never want to mention that until the deal is done.
ROB: I think that’s good to think about. Again, you have this tremendous perspective from talking to lots of different agency owners/founders/partners. Is there anything else you think is a key takeaway that you think is critical to share?
JASON: Yes. If you keep constantly saying to yourself you’re too busy, you’re not charging enough. Every single agency I talk with—well, minus one. That one agency was charging too much. When I asked, “What are the results you’re delivering to your clients?”, that one was charging more than the results they were delivering. I told them, “That’s not fair to the client—You need to charge less.” That was only one time, and I’ve worked with over 20,000 agencies in the years since we sold.
But the biggest one is to charge more, to really understand the value you’re delivering to your clients, and to constantly keep treating yourself as a stock. Don’t worry about what your competition is charging or what the market is charging.
Price is irrelevant. It’s about urgency. If I was about to have a heart attack, I don’t give a crap what the doctor’s going to tell me about how much it costs to save my life. I’m going to say, “Fix it. I’ll figure it out later.” It’s an urgency issue. It’s never a pricing issue. You’re never going to win or lose a deal on price; it’s just you lost it on communication or figuring out what was the real urgency.
One of the best strategies you can do is looking at your price and asking, “How can I raise it?” The more in demand I am, the more I keep raising my prices.
ROB: That’s probably hard—you start this agency thing often as one or two people, and you’re doing everything and you’re charging enough to put food on the table. So it’s probably hard to think of yourself as, “We should charge $200 an hour,” or even getting out of the hours game and charging for services delivered. I think that’s probably a pretty tough journey.
JASON: Yeah, I started by charging $500 for a website. My highest website ever sold was close to a million.
ROB: And was the million dollar website 200 times more work than the $500 website?
JASON: No. God, no. Here’s a story. I had hard time saying “no” to prospects. I think a lot of people do. At the time we were charging around $20,000 for a website, like a 10-page, public-facing website, no technology behind it. It was just on Sitefinity. There was no custom development. He came to me, and he was a prick. I didn’t want to work with him. So I said eighty grand—and he said yes. I’m like, crap.
But then I realized that people will pay eighty grand for the same website, and if I keep doing $20,000 websites, my opportunity cost is $60,000. Why waste that? So I started realizing that. Price is irrelevant. You have to figure out the expectations.
I walked into a meeting one time for this company I’d never heard of, and I was like, “Man, this is a huge conference room.” I looked around, and all these people in suits keep coming. I’m pitching a website. I lost the deal because I pitched the website for $10,000, but the company I was meeting with, Berkshire Hathaway—one of the biggest companies in the world—I’d never heard of—stupid—was expecting something like $200,000. I was trying to sell them a Ferrari for $100. Immediately their expectations were so far off, they’re like “You’re selling a Ferrari for $100? Is it a Matchbox car? Is it stolen? Does it have an engine?”
You have to figure out people’s expectations, and then, what results do they expect to get from it? Figure out your pricing that way.
ROB: I like that. There are a few great dimensions in there. The opportunity cost piece, and even the value of a price to set someone’s expectations so you understand what it is that they want and need from you. That’s what I’m hearing.
JASON: That’s right. One other nugget I’ll give to you guys is my budget buster. Yes, I named it a budget buster. It’s so cheesy, but you’ll remember it now.
I always laugh when people don’t ask the budget. Whenever I’m speaking at a conference, I’ll say “How many people ask for a budget?” 50% of the room. Then 50% of the 50% will say, “Yeah, I can get the budget.” I’m like, man, there’s 75% of the room that has no idea what this client’s expectations are—because they don’t have the ammo in order to do that.”
So here’s the deal. Here’s how I would come up with a budget 99% of the time. I would say, “Hey, what’s your budget?” What do they say? “I don’t have a budget.” Right? Every single time, “I don’t have a budget.” I say, “Cool. I love working with people who don’t have a budget so we can do all kinds of amazing things and not worry about money.” Then I shut up.
Then I say, “Oh, so you do have a budget, because obviously you’re cringing right now. I was kind of joking with you.” You don’t have to do that; that has to fit your personality.
But this will work: do the reverse auctioneer. What that is, is, “I just need to know some kind of range of what you’re trying to stay around, so I know if we’re the right fit for you and what I can recommend to you. Are you trying to stay around a million, $900,000, $800,000, $700,000, $500,000 – what’s the range?”
Start high. Everybody starts low for some odd reason. Whatever number you say first, they’re going to remember. If you said $100,000, they’re going to remember your agency at $100,000 versus at a million. Does that make sense?
ROB: Absolutely. You’re getting into some personal pain points and regrets for me, myself. I find the deals that are just the toughest and most painful to get through – you hit on a couple things. You don’t know what kind of budget you’re trying to hit. Sometimes you’re going through this extensive process and you don’t know what their budget is and what target you’re trying to hit and if it’s going to be worth all the work.
And then you also got at the issue of when someone just asks you to send over a proposal. If you combine those two things, I feel like it’s this worst business development torture device where you don’t know the budget and you’re sending this document into the dark, where you hope they respond to it. You made some really good points in there.
JASON: Yeah, it’s tough. You’re going blind. You might as well just take a proposal, spend 5 days on it, and throw it in the trash. That’s basically the equivalent.
I’m a big movie guy, so it’s like in Vegas Vacation when Clark is taking to Cousin Eddie and he keeps putting money into this bad casino. The dealer goes to him and goes, “Why don’t you give me half your money, I’ll kick you in the nuts and we’ll call it even?” That’s kind of like doing a proposal without knowing the budget. [laughs]
ROB: [laughs] That’s good stuff, Jason. Thank you. You gave me a website; when someone wants to learn a lot about what you’re doing, they can go to the website swenk.it. Is that right?
JASON: Swenk It, yep. You’ve got to Swenk it.
ROB: Is there any other way that people should get in touch with you if they want to get in touch with you, Jason?
JASON: Go to Swenk It or go to jasonswenk.com. I have two podcasts that we do. One is a weekly show and then another one is pretty much a daily show, Monday through Thursday. We just put out a lot of content that I wish we’d had. So go check that out, and if I can ever help you guys out, let me know. But Swenk It! [laughs]
ROB: That sounds great, Jason. Jason’s got a lot of great resources. I encourage you to go check it out. Thank you so much, Jason, for your time and experience and wisdom. It’s been great having you.
JASON: Thanks for having me.
ROB: Take care.
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