Duff Ferguson is Partner and Founder of Amplitude Digital, a PPC and SEO digital marketing agency, Google and Facebook Partner, and three-time recipient of the Tech Innovator Award.
When Duff started what is today Amplitude Digital about 15 years ago, it provided general branding and marketing services. In 2015, it pivoted to focus on digital marketing, advertising, organic search, and e commerce, specifically on how clients could increase advertising spend, increase traffic, build their presence in online organic search . . . and then get a multiple return on that spend. Amplitude Digital compiles and analyzes “big data,” develops strategies, and strives to deliver first-page online rankings, breakthrough traffic, and high-performing ads. Typical clients are ecommerce companies selling packaged consumer goods on such platforms as Amazon, Google search, Bing, Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. Amplitude Digital maintains a 95% client retention rate.
Duff feels that Amplitude Digital is able to produce reliable, consistent results for its clients because the company:
- knows how to build reliable information from digital data,
- understands how digital bidding systems and online algorithms work,
- develops dependable “white hat” SEO optimization strategies,
- creates well-run, efficient pay-per-click systems . . .
- and is able to identify and undo legacy “stuff” that is creating penalties and problems for companies.
Duff believes that what he calls “Real Talk” is critical to online success, and notes, in particular, these site components:
- listing, title, and description quality;
- sizing charts;
- pictures; and
- brand store information.
He notes that these are ingrained in today’s Amazon and Google algorithms, but, for long term success, companies will need to develop their own platforms so that they have the ability to control their data and know their customers (audience demographics).
ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m your host, Rob Kischuk, and I’m joined today by Duff Ferguson, Partner and Founder of Amplitude Digital based in Los Angeles, California. Welcome to the podcast, Duff.
DUFF: Hey, thanks, Rob. It’s great to be here.
ROB: Fantastic to have you joining us today. Why don’t you start off by telling us a little bit about Amplitude Digital and what makes Amplitude great?
DUFF: Sure. We’re really fortunate because we work in what I would consider to be a really fun business. It’s exciting not only because of the work we do every day, but because of what we’re reading in the news about what’s happening in the digital world, and people’s privacy and their information and how they’re being tracked. Just a cool area to be sitting in, to see from the back side what actually is happening with your data, what’s happening when you shop online or when your kids go online. That sort of thing is really cool.
Our company basically generates traffic and sales revenue, mostly for ecommerce companies, and we do it through the platforms that you might expect: Amazon, Google search, Bing, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn. We’re focusing on companies primarily in the consumer packaged goods space, so things like bars and supplements, beauty products, clothing, food – things that people use on a regular basis and are highly competitive areas of the internet because there’s a lot of providers, not only of branded stuff, but also of stuff that’s been knocked off and rebranded.
It’s difficult, particularly online, for companies that may not have any brick and mortar at all to find a unique way of presenting themselves online and building themselves a defensible area of search and advertisement where they really stand out and move products online. But it is a big problem for companies that are new, and for those that are old. Everyone’s a little bit different.
That’s basically what we do. It’s a pure return on ad spend conversation we have with the customer. How can they spend more money on advertising, more money on building their presence in organic search, and deliver a multiple out of that? It’s a tricky and interesting problem that keeps our brains working here all day long.
ROB: Very tricky indeed. What do you think it is about those types of services, that return on ad spend focus, those types of clients, that resonates with you? Because it all typically stems from the joy and passion of the founder and building in people around you.
DUFF: Yeah, it’s easy for me to get excited about this stuff. [laughs] Motivating everybody else too is the tricky part. But I think it comes back to what we excel at, like you were saying before. I like to say we excel at coolness and how sharp we dress, that sort of thing.
But actually, it’s really the opposite. I think companies are looking at us because we’re not particularly cool. We’re more nerdy and uncool, but very reliable. I think it’s an area of the world that most of our clients don’t really understand that well. They don’t speak our lingo. They don’t really have the time or interest or energy to be able to understand what’s happening with these bidding systems, with the way the algorithms are working.
We’re really excited about that stuff. What they look for us to do is to provide them the trust and the feeling that we’re doing it right and that we’re being good stewards of their spend, and that the information we’re bringing them is reliable – and it’s not just based on a shoot-from-the-hip type of one man show, like “this is what we should do”; it’s built on data.
We’re kind of data nerds. We attract people that are interested in really diving into the data and figuring out what is really happening. We come up with really credible cases or developing them through to our experimentation and testing – that really give our clients the confidence that they’re spending money correctly and not just throwing good money after bad or throwing money at some sort of way of doing an SEO optimization that may in 6 months be eliminated by Google as something they can do. We want stuff that really lasts, that works, and that is highly competitive.
That for us is the excel part of this, like audience and demographics and data, and really coming back constantly to this return on ad spend question. Really never doing anything unless we feel it’s going to make money. You’d be surprised how often companies will throw a lot of money at things that they don’t really understand well or are not necessarily delivering a lot, but they don’t have a lot of time to look at it.
We as a partner really feel we can sit there right beside them with the experience. Both me and my partner have been the senior leaders at large corporations, so we understand the pressures of what it means to sit in a large corporation that has 60,000 people in it, and you have to walk into a Board of Directors meeting and explain why you just spent $100,000 for 6 months of SEO.
So, we really feel that we’re exceptionally good at giving people the comfort and also just the education they need to sell more of this service within their own company and to get the results that they want without necessarily being too bogged down with details. I don’t know if that quite answers your question, but that’s where we’re aiming here.
The passion for me – and you can hear my passion in my voice – but I think people also get very excited too – we can talk about this later – about the kind of company culture we have. It’s not only about just enjoying this work, but also getting a chance to live out your dreams as far as a working environment. That also makes it exciting for the people here, even as the work might be a little boring sometimes.
ROB: Let’s get there by maybe rewinding a little bit. You mentioned that you and your partner have had some bigger jobs, and you’ve also spent some time building Amplitude. What led you to start Amplitude in the first place?
DUFF: That’s a funny question. For me, I’d like to say it was a grand design I had at the time, but I think for me – and maybe people will resonate with this – I just couldn’t take it anymore. As you rise up in these large organizations, you’re still pretty constrained by the corporation as to what you can do, how quickly you can pivot. It’s a much tougher ship to be a piece of.
Speaking personally here, I really felt that there was more to be had, and I wasn’t going to find it unless I was willing to risk everything and do it myself. Before everybody goes out and quits their job, I would say that I did have the ability at that stage of the career that I was at to go and get consulting work and make a living doing odd consulting jobs. That gave me some wind under my wings to be able to form something new.
I do feel that was a valuable experience, and just understanding – because I think a lot of the people that run agencies or are in agencies, and a lot of our employees, they’ve never worked for a major employer where they have things like HR departments and memos. They don’t understand why the customers act the way they do because they just don’t understand the internal pressures they’re making.
Again, our number one purpose here is making money for our clients. If we make money, they’ll put up with a lot of whatever it is we’re willing to give them. But we want to give them more than just return on ad spend. We want to really have them feel they’re winning at this and that they’ve got the world’s greatest partner at their side, doing it, and who’s willing to do anything to make it happen.
In terms of the evolution, how it went, for a long time it grew out of that consulting business. But the really key piece that took this to the level that it’s at now was really the formation of the second stage of what we call Amplitude Digital now. It’s been around for about 4 years. This company actually dates back about 15, doing more general branding and marketing.
We really honed it down at that point to focus in on this traffic and revenue, return on ad spend, digital marketing, advertising, and organic search and ecommerce. That sounds like a lot of things, but it’s gradually worked into that.
My partner, Joe, brought with him, from his company, Connect, a real solid foundation in data and structure. My work’s been more about branding and more of the soft factors. He brought a lot of the real hard factors with him and real solid credibility to be able to run exceptionally large campaigns and to do well.
Also, it helped with the combination of two people like myself that we were now able to begin to attract the kind of capital and clients and people we really wanted to attract to have a world class effort.
ROB: Right. It’s definitely an interesting plan. I was wondering when I saw that the business overall had been around for a while, and some of what you’re doing in pay-per-click and SEO, those are some of the Granddaddy digital marketing skills.
So I wondered if you had come from that background and specialized, because that whole world – the SEO part in particular – seemed fractured into – there’s some folks who are in ecommerce, some people are in local, some people are in maybe more enterprise and highly competitive enterprise categories. So I was curious how you got there.
Coming in later into ecommerce, do you think there are some advantages that may have given you up against people who had been doing pay-per-click for a long time, but maybe not so focused on the return on ad spend type of engagement?
DUFF: That’s an interesting question. I think one of the things that’s really fascinating about our business, and it’s great for young people, is that the world changes so quickly now that if you don’t really study up every week or two about what’s going on, in 6 months you’re completely out of date.
I’m dating myself here a little bit, but back when I started working, you could go for years working off of whatever it is your attitude was about what you were doing, and it would work. But Google constantly is evolving and getting trickier and more interesting. There’s the rise of these huge ecommerce providers – not only Amazon, but Walmart and Target now are coming on – and we talked about already the data that’s happening.
I don’t feel we’re at all disadvantaged. I do think that there is some disadvantages in what we witness as far as the readiness or the current state of some of these older companies that have been doing it for a while, because a lot of companies, particularly in terms of SEO, did a lot of things on their websites that now would be considered black hat or grey hat. The benefit of working with us now, if we start from scratch, is that it’s white hat, pure, all the way.
We spend a lot of time undoing stuff that is actually creating penalties and problems for companies. It can be quite deeply entrenched in their systems when you have companies – we spoke to a company the other day that has something like a million visits, they’ve got millions of pages. It’s a massive, massive website. Even just to touch it and make any kind of difference on it now is a real question. What are we going to spend weeks working on to make some kind of impact on this website?
It’s different for every client, but I do feel like we’re now at the stage where every 6 months, every 3 months, there’s something new happening at Google. We do our best. We don’t really feel like we want our clients to be cutting-edge, because that’s where you end up spending a lot of excess money and not necessarily getting the benefit you think.
We’re more about trailing a little bit and giving people what we know to be dependable strategies that will work and last. Of course, that’s mostly white hat stuff on the SEO side. On the pay-per-click stuff side, there it’s more a combination of really well-run work, very efficient processing of stuff that just needs to be done on a daily basis. We really try to invest our people’s time and energy in the thoughtful, strategic side, and then try to make the day-to-day apparatus of what we do as cheap and systemized as we possibly can, because that’s the stuff we just want to run as much as possible and not run a cost.
Basically, to answer your question, we’re in a good place right now, but I do feel like we have heavy competition here in Los Angeles and around the States. We’re always running up against good competitors. They’re good people, so there’s nothing wrong with what they’re doing; it’s just we need to be a little more exciting, more interesting, and I like to feel we’re more fun and maybe just more personable and interesting and cool to work with, in our way. So people just like us better. They’ll hopefully like our work as well. [laughs]
ROB: Heavy competition, but also I would imagine a proliferation of interesting products to work with. I think it’s interesting to dig in a little bit to the color and shape of what the clients look like. What are some of the more interesting products and companies that you’re involved in, that someone listening might not even expect was a viable ecommerce business?
DUFF: Gosh. The number one version from that example right now would be gold and silver bars. We have a company that – there’s actually a large business selling physical gold and silver online, and people actually buy gold bars, gold coins, silver coins. They put them in the bank, they bury them in their backyard. It’s almost entirely an ecommerce business. Unless you’re walking to a pawn shop or something, you’re buying gold online.
It’s a very interesting problem, because you have someone that wants to buy $100,000-$200,000 worth of something. They’re finding a company they’ve never dealt with before, and they’ve got to deal with them over the phone and online. It’s a very interesting ecommerce question. It’s a little different from buying a $10 or $20 maternity dress or buying a $3 bar online, where there’s no risk. You hate the bar, you throw it away, and you forget about it. You buy $200,000 worth of gold, you really want to make sure it’s going to be safely handled.
For a company like that, it’s more about trust and reputation and making sure they’re in the right environment online, and that all the signals coming out of their advertising, the reviews, their website, their materials, collateral, everything is highly trust-oriented. Of course, trust is a big deal for anybody that’s online, but the signals can be more subtle and more algorithm-based. In this case, it’s a people business.
The only thing is, that’s kind of an outlier for us. Most of our customers are things that are pretty boring stuff, but stuff that’s harder to sell, like protein bars, maternity clothing. We have a company that has a massive maternity clothing business, which is very seasonal, very sale-based. It also has a lot of knockoff competitors coming from China and other areas that just take their designs, run them off, and a week later they’re running the same stuff.
It’s a really interesting, competitive type environment to play in, and one that requires a lot of handholding and a lot of energy. But there’s a lot of money to be made. Obviously, people are having a lot of babies, and people need maternity clothing. It’s a fun thing to be doing.
ROB: Absolutely. It’s interesting how you mention some of those clients who have been around for a while. The ecommerce world itself continues to change, evolve, and shift as well. Some brands are completely digitally native brands, which is its own entire interesting conversation, whereas you may have some legacy clients – I spent some time in the ecommerce world, and one of those dirty words, but necessary, is re-platforming.
If someone spent a bunch of money customizing their platform and then they’re going to change it, it can be terrifying. But their competitor may have just set something up on, for goodness’s sake, Shopify, and just tweaked it a little bit, and they’re focusing on executing the rest of the business.
ROB: What are you seeing platform-wise and where somebody new is setting up shop?
DUFF: This is a very cool question. We get this one a lot, actually. Shopify I love. I’ve got no relationship with Shopify, other than the fact that they’re used by a lot of our customers.
ROB: But they have a partner program, right?
DUFF: They do. We may be part of it, but we don’t receive any compensation for them. We just act for them basically on behalf of our clients. The reason I bring them up is just that their system is so beautifully built, not only to run ecommerce well, no matter what your size, but also SEO-wise. Excellent, fast system.
If somebody has an existing website they’re running their stuff on – they might be using a WordPress type thing – we’re always going in there and trying to speed it up. There’s all kinds of technical factors. It gets very expensive and needs to be constantly updated. That doesn’t mean it can’t be done. But we generally always steer people away from WordPress and WordPress-related ecommerce websites. It’s just going to be a headache for you all along and will require re-platforming later.
ROB: And their twin brother Magento, right?
DUFF: Magento actually is a different animal because it’s designed for massive ecommerce. There, if you have 10,000 products – I had a client a while ago that was selling postage stamps on Magento. There’s an interesting business to try to make money online. But the thing about Magento is that it’s not something you want to go to unless you really are prepared to maintain it. But for a massive effort, it is probably what you want to have.
I think Shopify has a major largescale platform as well. But a lot of our clients pretty much can make do with the regular Shopify. From an SEO standpoint, it just requires a lot less technical work. We get in there more focused on the stuff you want us to focus on – placing metadata, working on the quality of your listings, putting in more branding and sales messaging into the category pages, making the site optimized for sales as opposed to saying, “How are we going to make it so that Google doesn’t give you a bad score because every time people come to your website, they bounce off because it doesn’t load or there are 404 errors?” All the usual stuff.
But the usual progression that I’ve seen for most companies now is they’ll begin on Amazon and really work out their product well on Amazon and get used to the service experience that people are used to getting from Amazon. Once they’ve got that going, they’re tired of paying Amazon to keep their data. They’ll begin branching into their own system.
That’s a great way to go, because at that point you really know what to invest in, and you can spend your money wisely. You’re not just building something and saying, “All right, now what do we do with this thing?”
But it’s difficult to beat Amazon. I have a love/hate relationship with Amazon. Again, I work with them every day. I’m not taking any money from the guys, but as a consumer, I’m a heavy user of Amazon for all of the obvious reasons. It just really works well. And every time I get an email from them, it’s about something new they’re doing that’s even better.
There’s a part of me that worries about that from a societal standpoint. [laughs] What does it mean to have one company controlling the distribution of all the goods, potentially all the services in America? But for now, you really have to be there. We advise our clients, if they’re just starting out, to begin there and then to work on developing their own on the side as well.
We can do both at the same time, but if you’re not working with Amazon, you’re in trouble, probably.
ROB: Right, because someone else is also just going to start selling a knockoff of your product on Amazon, probably. You can pretend you’re not there, but you kind of are there. You’re just not getting any money from it.
DUFF: Yeah, you need to structure your business such that you can work with Amazon, but you may eventually find that it’s not going to give you what you need. Primarily, what you really want is to control your data. You want to know your customer. There’s nothing more valuable to us as advertisers than a list of emails from your customers, because we can create lookalike audiences from those and cut the cost of your advertising by incredible amounts.
If we’re just starting from scratch and saying, “all right, where are we going to find your customers?” – it’s the way it’s done. But if you can give us a list of 5,000 existing customers, you’re way ahead of the game as far as understanding who actually buys your product and why. Our data systems can really make a lot out of that to save you money.
It’s an interesting problem. But for platforming, I’d say you’ve got Amazon, you’ve got Shopify. There’s a few other tools that our clients use. HubSpot is a great one. Really integrates beautifully with all the advertising platforms, with Shopify. One-click install. Just really super simple. Again, I don’t take any money from HubSpot, but they’re just hard to beat.
That plus the tools we use from our own business – we try to keep it simple so that we can focus our efforts not on phoning support and figuring out how to get this domain connected, but just do it and get down to our main business, which is making you money off your advertising.
ROB: That does seem like the big challenge with Amazon is owning your audience. I think about them kind of like the Walmart of data. Walmart would just eat up all your margins. Amazon will eat up all your data, and they won’t give you much of it back. You don’t have email addresses, mailing addresses – to your point, retargeting, remarketing – any of that. You just have a sale.
DUFF: I think what’s inspiring about what they do – not to beat up on Amazon too much, because I think they really provide the most beautiful experience you could imagine. It’s really shocking how well it works. [laughs] When you look at where we work here in Culver City and the pile of Amazon boxes coming in every day, people just ordering stuff on the fly for anything – and it often arrives the same day you order it. Certainly here in Los Angeles. Never a problem with returns.
So I think from an ecommerce standpoint, it’s really something to admire and watch. If you’re producing something that’s great and you really want to get it out there, working with Amazon is really great. Some of our customers have more trouble with them because of what they’re selling. Like in the food business, Amazon is trickier, because your food can’t expire. It can’t be sitting in a hot truck somewhere for very long. It can’t melt. All this kind of stuff. It’s much, much trickier.
The protein bar manufacturer we were working with recently had to retool a lot of their business to properly work with the inventory system of Amazon. It can be a tricky thing, because they do it their way and they don’t customize it for anybody. So, it can be a tricky business.
But that said, once it’s running, there’s so much we can do to make your stuff rise to the top. It’s more than just advertising. The quality of your listings, the quality of your titles, the descriptions, the sizing charts, the pictures, the brand store, all of that really makes a huge difference. The Amazon algorithm is excellent, and the advertising system is really cool. There’s a whole environment in and of itself that’s a completely different way of doing pay-per-click than anything else, and you can make a lot of money there.
So if you’ve got a good product that’s selling well on Amazon, we can really make hay on it. It’s an exciting place to be, too. As much as I love to hate them, I’ve also got to give them a lot of props.
ROB: It sounds like a good place for you to be with that passion and focus in SEO and pay-per-click. It’s different. You have to learn new tricks to do SEO and pay-per-click on their platform. But the things you’re talking about, I would say in terms of the quality of the listing, is consistent with where Google’s going these days. They are focused on factors that make the end user happier, to help them find what they need. Both are resonant towards I think the new flavor of SEO.
DUFF: That’s the truth, yes. Real talk.
ROB: As you reflect on what you’ve done building Amplitude, what are some things you’ve learned that you might do differently next time, if you were starting from scratch?
DUFF: That’s interesting. I think one of the temptations that we’ve had over the evolution of the company is jumping a little too fast for people that want to give us work that doesn’t necessarily relate to the core of what we do. That’s also a problem for an agency, because you’re always trying to grow, always trying to add new clients, and you just want to get over the line. You want your salespeople to be satisfied.
I’ve always found that whenever we take a moment over the course of our evolution and refocus our energy back on the core of what we do and begin working ourselves out of client relationships, passing off relationships that just don’t match what it is we do, it makes our people happier. It makes us more excited, and it just makes everything so much cleaner and clearer.
Even the list of stuff I gave you at the beginning of what we do, there’s probably five or six agencies focusing far more deeply in each of these things. I think we sit at the sweet spot of people that aren’t ready to hire a massive agency but need a lot of coverage for a lot of areas, and don’t want to risk dealing with a one- or two-man outfit out of a garage or something. They can’t handle that. So I think that’s one thing.
I think also, along the lines of as a smaller agency evolves into a larger one, the quality of the people – it’s so important in the beginning, and it gets even more important as it goes along. Sometimes we’re in a condition where we need somebody really fast, and every year it gets harder and harder to hire people.
Combination of the really full employment right now, but also – again, I’m showing my age a little bit here – I think there’s a general slackness in the workforce on the millennial side a little bit, just because they haven’t been in a market where it’s been really hard to get a job. They’re a little used to being handheld and given a lot without having to show their stripes from the very beginning and really be excellent. That doesn’t mean that they’re bad people or anything. We take the good people however we can get them. We train them in what we need.
But the point I’m trying to make is when we have a good person in hand, it’s like an exponential benefit that just keeps giving. They bring such an energy to the company that is far and away from someone that we’re constantly working on and feeling like they’re filling a seat they can’t really hold.
Something we haven’t talked about is something we really care about a lot here is what we call our ’Tude. We have this thing called the ’Tude. The feeling is like when you give somebody a high five and you’re just like “we did it!” That’s when we know the ’Tude has happened.
There’s five fingers on that hand of the ’Tude, and that is – let’s see if I can remember off the top of my head here, quickly: being accountable, being authoritative, being analytic, action-oriented, and advocate. They’re all A’s because we’re Amplitude, of course.
Basically, these are the things that, if our employees are embodying this, we’re going to win. Our customers really feel this because we’re looking for people that are self-starters, for people that really love what they do and want to pursue their career here. They want to write their own ticket. They view our company as a crucible where they can do that. We’re really supportive of, if you do what we want you to do, we’re willing to invest heavily.
Some people really flower in that kind of environment. They tend to be more startup-oriented kind of people that really want to get ahead. People that just want a position where they can sit back and get comfortable and just do something tend to not fit in too well. I feel that early on, we didn’t really have a codification – is that a word, even?
ROB: I think it is.
DUFF: Okay. We hadn’t codified that clearly enough so that when people were coming in, they could feel that and see it embodied in a way they could really understand. They know from the first day forward, if they take a job on, what are your deadlines? Like, “Here’s the deadline.” “Are they reasonable deadlines?” “I think so.” “Well, you’re going to be responsible for meeting these deadlines. Set yourself reasonable deadlines and meet them. Nobody’s asking you here to work over the weekend. Set a deadline that’s reasonable. Hit that deadline.”
That brings us back to what we excel at. I think it’s unfortunately still surprising in this day and age. I find most of the agencies we’re competing against, what we hear about from our customers that are griping about other agencies when they’re coming to us, is it’s usually not so much they’re getting terrible results, but they just don’t understand them. They don’t feel that they understand the system. They may be succeeding; they don’t really know.
I guess what I’m trying to bring this back to is the sense that that kind of employee spirit and attitude really wins points with the customers. We walk into a meeting and they say, “Does Google allow you to do this?” and we say, “Oh sure, yeah,” and then we come back later and say, “Oh, it doesn’t.” Our answer always is “We don’t know, but we’re your experts. We’re going to find out, and we’re going to have an answer for you.”
We’re respectfully humble in our intelligence. We want our people to feel dumb whenever they want to feel dumb, and to go out and do the research. We’re learning all the time. Our customers appreciate that kind of honesty and straightforwardness. We’re going to get the job done on time, on point, on budget, no matter what. Don’t worry. But we’re also not going to promise you a bunch of things we can’t deliver on.
That’s something that has served us well more recently. I think that really works.
ROB: That sounds great for keeping team and great for keeping clients. Duff, when people want to find you and Amplitude, where should they find you?
DUFF: Do a search for “best Los Angeles pay-per-click agency” or something. [laughs] We actually get tons and tons of flow from just plain old organic search. But if people want to read about us, they can do so at – we have a website, amplitude.digital. That’s our easiest thing to remember. That’s basically the long and short about us in one page.
Our main website is amplitudeagency.com. And we’re on most of the major review sites and places like that, Clutch and others, so people can read reviews of us. But we’re not hard to find. We’re always available to have conversations, talk over ideas, and if people are interested, ready to jump into action.
ROB: That’s a good testament to find your SEO agency through SEO and pay-per-click if that’s what you need. Way to walk the talk there. Duff, thank you for coming on the podcast, and thank you for sharing.
DUFF: You’re welcome, Rob. It’s such a pleasure. Again, this is a great podcast. It’s great to be a part of it. Keep on going. This is really solid stuff. Thank you for having me.
ROB: Glad to have you joining. Thank you, Duff.
DUFF: Have a great day.
ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email firstname.lastname@example.org, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.