When We Need to Use the Funnel to Feed the Flywheel

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Ingunn Bjøru, COO of Avidly’s inbound line and Country Manager for Norway, is based in Oslo. A very recent merger of four former HubSpot Diamond agencies, Avidly is now the world’s largest inbound agency and HubSpot partner. With additional offices in Stockholm, Sweden, Aarhu, Denmark; and “all over Finland,” Avidly enables growing companies to use one agency to promote their products across four Nordic countries, with a fifth (unnamed) country to be added in the near future. The increase in staff from the merger brings the company an increased breadth of critical skills.

The merger of four companies in four countries has created some expected and unexpected problems. For instance, outsiders are often not even aware of the geographies of these countries and frequently assume that the Scandinavian countries are culturally similar. What to do with “all the staff” has been less of a problem since employees have taken advantage of the opportunity to redefine themselves and choose their areas of concentration.

Ingunn discusses how Avidly is involved in HubSpot’s Sales Enterprise launch, how that product will enable larger companies to convert their sales teams to inbound, and the product’s growth strategy. She suspect’s that it will be easier to add sales functionality to HubSpot’s Sales Enterprise Module than it will be for sales management software SalesForce to integrate marketing into its product.

Ingunn presented “Recipe for Growth: How We Became the World’s Largest Inbound Agency” at HubSpot’s Inbound 2018. She talked about cultural differences, recruitment, and forecasting.

One cultural difference is the concept of Tillitsbasert ledelse. Tillitt is trusting somone, basert is basing it on something and ledelse is management. Management trusts the team it has hired . . . inspiring the team to rise to the challenge and deliver. New employees don’t have to earn trust. Trust is implicit in the hiring and is only taken away when they fail.

Ingunn mentions how it is always difficult to know when to hire new staff. She described how Growit Group, a company that helps agencies grow, built Avidly’s budget and supplied a template using sales metrics to trigger hiring and identifying the roles to fill at various sales levels.

She endorses service level agreements as a way to manage intracompany and client expectations and compares and contrasts HubSpot’s non-transactional marketing flywheel with the marketing funnel. In particular, Ingunn notes that the flywheel model, which is built on the idea of maintaining long term customer relationships, is not appropriate for businesses selling a one-time product. Ingunn is concerned that, while marketing professionals migrate from the funnel to the flywheel, they will come up with too many “versions” and confuse the market.

The Avidly company website is http://avidlyagency.com and Ingunn can be reached on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/ingunnbjoru/

ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m your host, Rob Kischuk. I am joined today by Ingunn Bjøru. We are live at HubSpot’s Inbound Conference. She is the COO of Avidly’s inbound line based in Oslo, Norway. They also have offices in Sweden, Denmark, and Finland. She’s also the Country Manager for Norway. That’s a mouthful, but it’s because they have a lot going on. Welcome to the podcast.

INGUNN: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

ROB: It’s a pleasure to have you here. Tell us a little bit about Avidly and what makes Avidly great.

INGUNN: Avidly is made up of four former Diamond agencies who came together to create the world’s largest inbound agency and HubSpot partner. We are based in Stockholm, Sweden; Aarhus, Denmark; and all over Finland. We also have an office in Oslo, where I’m based.

We literally became Avidly officially on Friday before Inbound, so it was a race to get it done because we wanted to go to Inbound and be done, and it was signed and ready. But it’s been in the works for I would say at least 18 months. That’s when we started in Norway as Inbound Norway.

We quickly started to talk to Doidea in Sweden and Katalysator in Denmark. We saw that we were working in similar ways. In Norway we voiced that we had huge ambitions, and they weren’t put off. They were like, “Okay, this sounds interesting.” We proved that we could do what we said we were going to do in the first 6 months of business, and then we sat down and were like, “Okay, what would it look like if we came together?”

For a while we were saying, “Should we just do projects together? Should we test this?” Quite quickly we were like, “No, we’re just going to jump right in and become one.” It has made a lot of sense. It’s a lot of work to merge, but it’s definitely coming together. As soon as we came out and said we were joining, Zeeland Family in Finland was like, “Oh, okay, we want to be in on this party.” That was what was finalized on Friday.

ROB: That’s amazing. What are the advantages of bringing these four different countries together? Are there campaigns that are targeted across the region, where it makes sense to execute locally? What’s the strategy there?

INGUNN: In many ways, things will remain the same for some of the offices and for our normal marketing. In terms of a campaign, we will do a launch campaign where we talk about marketing across the Nordic countries.

An advantage of it being us four, at least to begin with, is that we are reaching out to a market that are looking to grow into one of the other countries. A lot of our bigger clients are looking to establish in Sweden, or they want to go into Finland. So, it’s a huge advantage to be an agency that can offer someone on-the-ground in each of the countries.

Another big advantage is, being a small agency, you can specialize in one area. You can’t be an expert on everything, but we can have experts on everything because they’re based in each of the countries. That’s I think going to develop, especially now with everything that HubSpot is announcing here at Inbound with even more into the Service Hub and Sales Enterprise and everything. We actually have the manpower to have experts in all areas. So that’s a big advantage.

ROB: What are some details of things you’ve heard announced this week? Particularly specific things that are exciting and actionable, and come Monday of next week, things will be new.

INGUNN: I actually felt really bad yesterday because Brian Halligan was saying it’s all about your customer – which of course, it’s always been, but he said this is where your referrals are coming from, word-of-mouth is everything.

I’ve been pestering my market team and going, “More leads, more leads, more leads,” when I should’ve been a good boss and said, “Let’s focus on our customers and see how we can grow that into more business.” So that’s a major takeaway. I’ve already apologized. As soon as he said this, I was like, “It makes complete sense. I’m really sorry.” There are some changes we’re going to make there.

We’re also one of the partners for working on the new Sales Enterprise launch, so we are already working on how to implement that and how to help HubSpot spread that in the region.

ROB: Let’s take it a little bit to Sales Enterprise. What does that mean? For someone who’s listening and doesn’t know what that is, who does it matter to and what does it do for them?

INGUNN: I think specifically what we’ve connected it to is our larger clients, who have seen HubSpot as a good CRM tool. We’ve also seen them maybe dive more into the marketing part of HubSpot than ever touch on the sales.

Sometimes we really struggle to get – we deliver great leads to sale, and they haven’t bought into it yet. So I think Sales Enterprise is going to matter to specifically larger companies that can now get their sales team completely bought into Inbound or the growth strategy behind this methodology.

ROB: To draw the picture, it sounds a little bit like – would you say that Sales Enterprise is a fair competitor to Salesforce?

INGUNN: It will get there.

ROB: It will be?

INGUNN: Yeah, I think so. But I think it needs to be tested properly in the market. I’m not saying it’s not great; I think it’s phenomenal. But I think it needs to be tested properly in the market and we need the feedback from the clients on how to properly roll it out and do everything.

We see differences in products that have been developed here to how they actually implement say in Norway or in Sweden. But we have great clients who give us very honest feedback, so I’m sure we will pass it on to HubSpot.

ROB: Right. To your point about being here and being reminded of the importance of the customer, I have seen on every level HubSpot has lived this out to me in my Inbound experience, number one.

Number two, what I think we’re seeing, perhaps, is Salesforce is trying to blend into marketing, coming from sales. And HubSpot is trying to blend into sales, coming from marketing. It’s going to be an interesting path ahead.

INGUNN: Very interesting. But I do think HubSpot has the advantage of being so well-known for their great marketing. A lot of people, especially in our markets, think of them as a sales tool. So it’s going to take a lot more work for [Salesforce] to convert into a marketing tool than the other way around.

Then it’s really about the education, because sales teams will push for their own tools. [laughs] We’re seeing this already. But then again, we have a lot of clients who have integrations from Salesforce into HubSpot. It’s our job, then, to help them pick the best fit tool for them. We up until now work almost purely with HubSpot. Most of our consultants are HubSpot specialists, so it’s probably going to be the thing that we go for the most in our markets.

ROB: If we rewind a little bit, you mentioned you started Inbound Norway?


ROB: What possessed you to do such a thing? What’s the superhero backstory on Inbound Norway?

INGUNN: I think at the core lies a way of thinking: I’ll say yes and then worry later. I had a tendency when I was very young to worry too much, and I never said “yes” to anything. Then I realized if I say “yes,” I’m still going to worry just as much, but I’m actually going to have some pretty awesome experiences and get some things done.

Barbro, my cofounder, was like, “I just have a different vision for an agency. I want it to be the best place to work. Its’ going to be amazing to come into the office. You’re going to love working here. You’re going to be inspired. I want world domination.” I was like, “This sounds like me.” [laughs]

We were like, “This is what we want.” And we couldn’t really find anyone else doing it. Everyone was talking about it, but no one was really following through. So we thought, “Okay, let’s at least start on our own and take it from there.”

What possessed us? I think maybe we were naïve enough to think, “We can do this,” and then not worrying too much. Like, “If we can’t do it, it doesn’t really matter because then we have a great agency.” I think that was really it.

ROB: How did you know your cofounder? How much history did you have together?

INGUNN: We met a few years before, when she was actually leaving the company that I walked into. I was going to start as an SEO consultant in a company where she had done the marketing. We only met briefly, and I thought, “She’s so cool.” [laughs] But we didn’t really get to know each other.

Then she was leaving for a different job, and that agency was recruiting about 4 months later, looking for a consultant. I was like, “Well, I’m going to have to join this agency.” One of my friends was also working there, so I asked her, “Are you hiring?” That first time she said, “No, not really.” I was like, “It’s fine, I’m happy in my job.”

Then a month later, she sent me an ad saying, “Can you read this? Is this a type of job you would apply for?” I said, “Yeah, here’s my CV.” She went, “Can you proof it and see if we would get any relevant applicants?” I was like, “Yes, this is it. It’s me.”

Then I joined the agency where Barbro was working and we just got to know each other and realized that we had the same vision and that’s really what we wanted to do. The agency we were in weren’t going down that path, so we thought, “Okay, we’ll just do it ourselves.”

ROB: That’s amazing. You spoke this week. You shared a talk, and I’m going to read the title. “Recipe for Growth: How We Became the World’s Largest Inbound Agency.” That is a broad claim that you can back up. Tell us, what were you sharing in that talk? What thoughts did you have that we should take home with us?

INGUNN: I believe in brutal honesty. We are now a publicly listed company from Friday, so I was also told that, “There’s certain things you cannot share anymore.” I was like, well, I’m still going to be very honest.

ROB: We can trade your stock? Where do we trade your stock?

INGUNN: It’s currently on the Helsinki Stock Exchange, but we are doing a dual listing. From I think November, it’s possible to trade it in Stockholm as well. That’s going to be really exciting. And so, so scary, but fun. I’m learning all these new things.

But yeah, I just believe in being honest, so [my talk] was literally a list of key takeaways, big mistakes, and a lot of songs from late ’90s to mid-2000s. [laughs] Like Spice Girls, and we had “Eye of the Tiger” in there. And, unfortunately, some High School Musical, which I’m very ashamed of.

ROB: There’s not a need to be ashamed about it. Isn’t it your friends in Sweden where they write all the pop songs anyhow, all the Taylor Swift songs?

INGUNN: Oh yeah, yeah.

ROB: This is a whole thing.

INGUNN: It’s a whole thing.

ROB: We don’t talk about this a lot here. You should just google about the whole Swedish songwriter thing if you’re listening, because it’s a big, big thing.

INGUNN: It is, yeah.

ROB: It’s a little crazy.

INGUNN: So, what was I talking about? I think we talked a little bit about culture, how we believe in hiring adults and treating them accordingly. We have an expression in Norway called Tillitsbasert ledelse. Bit of Norwegian there.

ROB: The transcriber will have real fun with that one.

INGUNN: [laughs] It basically means “trust your team.” We believe in giving all the trust first, and then if you don’t live up to it, then we take away the goods. You don’t have to earn the trust. You have the trust by us hiring you. That was one that I saw a few people in the audience being like, “Oh, okay.”

We also talked about recruitment and forecasting, which I think a lot of agencies are struggling with. Agencies I’ve been in before have found it impossible because you don’t really know what’s going to happen. But we have been working with Growit Group, which is a company that helps agencies grow. They basically helped us build our budget. We said, “These are our sales targets; what now?”

Neither me or Barbro are financial experts, so we needed this help. They built a budget where we could literally see, “If you sell this much, this is when you need to hire the next person, and it needs to be this type of role or it needs to be this type of role.” Although that’s not an exact science, at least we know roughly, which has been very useful.

ROB: That’s fairly instructive, for sure. It’s really, really interesting.

What are some perhaps unexpected challenges of spanning four countries? Two things I’ll actually ask there. Number one, what are challenges people might not know? Number two, what are things people would think are a challenge but actually are not? I think there’s two different lenses there.

INGUNN: I think what might surprise people, especially if you’re not from Europe, you would think Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland, same country.

ROB: Different soccer teams, I know that.

INGUNN: Yeah. But since the male Norwegian soccer team hasn’t been doing that well for a few years, most people think Norway is the capital of Sweden. [laughs] Which it’s not.

ROB: [laughs] That’s a very strange thing, but I believe you.

INGUNN: It’s so true. I think they all think we’re all out cross-country skiing, eating meatballs, and sitting in the sauna.

ROB: Hanging out at Ikea.

INGUNN: That’s what we do.

ROB: And Legos.

INGUNN: Exactly.

ROB: It’s all of Scandinavia, all at once.

INGUNN: That’s literally what we do. No, but I think what might surprise people is that there’s bigger cultural differences than you might initially think. It’s not that they’re so vast that it’s impossible, but there’s definitely something to take into consideration.

What is an aspect of a challenge? I was asked this yesterday by someone who said, “If you’re merging four agencies, what happens to all the management? Do you fire people?” But no, we haven’t let people go because of this. We just look at what role is your best fit.

Again, maybe we’ve been really lucky, but everything in that sense has been fairly seamless. All the former CEOs and our Country Managers, and then we have specialists – so if someone was say a deputy or CEO before or in a higher management position that is no longer needed, we ask them, “What do you want to do? What are you interested in?”

We now have a new Head of Strategic Partnerships. Jeppe is crazy good at HubSpot. He knows everything, and he knows everyone. Literally sitting down with some of the product team yesterday and they go, “Can you give us the list of things that we don’t do well?” He’s like, “Yeah, I will send you an email.”

We’ve been very lucky in that sense, and I think that was maybe one of the things I thought was going to be a much bigger challenge.

ROB: Is there a fifth country you should be in?

INGUNN: We will be in a fifth country.

ROB: Wow.

INGUNN: But to be confirmed.

ROB: If we looked at a map, we could probably figure it out? Is that plausible?


ROB: No? Oh, wow.

INGUNN: But that is all. [laughs]

ROB: Surprise, spoiler alert. Public company. You can’t talk about it.

INGUNN: Yeah. We like to surprise. We were laughing yesterday because we literally 1 year ago sat together at Inbound saying, “Wouldn’t it be cool if we went full-on with this and built the world’s biggest agency?” So, we did that.

Our growth expert Joakim turned around to me – he’s the one finding the new agencies that we might potentially work with and doing all the admin around the merger – and he was like, “What’s going to happen next year?” Me and Barbro looked at him and we were like, “No. Can we wait till at least we’ve come home? We need to have a minute.” [laughs]

But we’re definitely going to keep growing.

ROB: I think that’s interesting. It’s almost, in a way, surprising that you can have four companies and at least four entrepreneurs – how many total founders do you have across the four companies? You have two in yours.

INGUNN: Yeah, we’re two. There’s four in Denmark, there’s one in Sweden, and then there are two in the Inbound line in Finland. That’s quite a lot of people.

But I think a lot of people starting their own agencies aren’t necessarily wanting to run the agency. They want to focus on something that excites them and that isn’t necessarily the admin. This is where a lot of the founders have slid into more specialist roles now, as we grow.

ROB: I was going to ask – it sounds like you have about 10 founders across the companies – how you get 10 people who have the audacity to start a company to set egos aside enough to join forces. But it sounds like part of the secret to that has been people peeling back, realizing there are things that are good, things that are not good, and things they don’t want to do anymore, and you can rely on each other’s strengths.

INGUNN: Absolutely. Most of their egos were never tied to the agency per se in that sense. They want the bigger agency now to do well, and then they realized “my skills are best suited at something else.” Four of us are still Country Managers, so we still do a lot of the same things. But they aren’t necessarily day-to-day doing strategy.

ROB: You mentioned that you shared in your talk some lessons you’ve learned along the way. What are some things you have learned in building the company that you might do differently if you were starting over?

INGUNN: One of the easiest things that any agency can do, regardless of what you’re doing, is to have a service level agreement. That’s got nothing to do with the merging. I mean, it’s been useful, but that’s something we should’ve had from Day 1 in every office. There’s templates for this in the HubSpot certification, so we could’ve copy-pasted.

But it’s so simple, so at least everyone’s talking about the same thing when they say an MQL or SQL – which we weren’t, when we looked at the different offices. They were defined differently. And when is sales going to respond to a lead? Marketing will have an assumption, and then sales didn’t respond because they didn’t know that they were expected to respond at that time.

An SLA is something that takes two minutes to get in place, and every agency should have one. We preach to our clients, “marketing is so big, you should have the collaboration,” and then we look at ourselves and we’re like “Oh, okay, we didn’t do that.” But we have that now.

I spoke a little bit as well about really knowing yourself as an agency. We were lucky. We hadn’t been going long in Norway when we started this merging process, but we were lucky that we met people that had similar values to us – very similar. They were just phrased differently, which was hilarious. There were just a few different words for the same thing.

But I wouldn’t go on dumb luck if I had more time, because you might not be as lucky. Definitely take the time to know your agency and what you really want to represent, so that when you start talking to other agencies, even about a collaboration, you don’t end up representing something you don’t want to stand for.

ROB: This is your second year at Inbound?


ROB: You came last year?

INGUNN: I did, yeah.

ROB: What brought you back, and what are you learning so far this week?

INGUNN: For us, this was an amazing opportunity to obviously learn new things – although I’ve been personally to one session, which was the keynote with Brian and Dharmesh, because everything else has been meetings.

We have brought consultants, who have been super busy going to six to eight sessions a day. That’s a good learning ground, I think. Last year I went to all the sessions.

But also, we had strategy sessions with the Country Managers. Although we live close, we don’t sit in the same room often. We do a lot of video, but we don’t sit face-to-face.

ROB: Yeah, it struck me this seems like a reason to get everybody together, even though it’s a very long plane flight. It would be much easier to – I don’t know what’s central. Is Denmark the closest place to be?

INGUNN: Stockholm is probably the easiest just because they have a lot more flights for some reason. But yeah, we do meet fairly regularly, but not as often as we would probably like. So, it was a great opportunity to do that.

We’ve also had a lot of meetings, specifically with HubSpot. They want to learn what we’re doing, because they’re obviously hearing from other agencies who want to do similar things. When we started doing this, there wasn’t really much resources or information or help out there. They want to know what they can do for agencies doing similar things, but also what they can do for an agency of our size. There are a handful of agencies in the community who are fairly large.

ROB: But you’re the biggest.

INGUNN: Well, yes. [laughs] Important footnote. No, I think they’re looking at how they can cater to the larger agencies, because they focus a lot on the smaller agencies – which I think is fantastic – but then there’s a big gap at the top, where we also need help.

ROB: But a 300 person independent agency is a little bit of a rare commodity. There are not a tremendous number of those.


ROB: There’s a couple of huge independents and then a bunch of holding company stuff, and then a bunch of, at least here, local. You kind of top out at 50, 100, 200 people; 300 is a lot of people.

INGUNN: I tend to try to not think about it. It goes back a little bit to the whole thing of saying yes before thinking too much. A lot of people are asking me, “Why did you take on the responsibility you’ve taken on? Why did you say yes to merging and becoming so big?” I’m like, “First of all, it’s a lot of fun. There’s so many new challenges and interesting things that are happening.”

Also, you can’t sit down and take in the gravity of the situation, the heaviness of it. I try not to do that, because if you have your strategy and you’re looking at your day-to-day running, that’s really where your head needs to be. Not thinking “Oh my God, 300? What are we doing?” I can’t even imagine 300 people in front of me.

But I can see clearly the different Inbound teams in front of me and who’s doing what. I try to sit down – when we’ve done the merging, I’ve got Finland coming up now, but I do speed dates with every team member. So I know who does mountain biking, I know who’s just had a kid, and that way it’s not 300 people. It’s Christina, it’s Leia. It’s specifically the people in each office and what their dreams are and what their challenges are.

ROB: Have you had everyone in one room yet, or is there a plan to do that sometime?

INGUNN: We are hoping to do that.

ROB: Little cruise ship? [laughs]

INGUNN: It’s almost easiest to do it flying everyone here at some point, right?

ROB: Just stop around the ports and pick everyone up on a cruise ship. It’d be fun.

INGUNN: Yeah, exactly. That’s the best option. We are hoping to do that. We did the budget calculations for that a month ago.

ROB: [laughs] A little bit prohibitive. Squad goals?

INGUNN: Yeah, it’s definitely a stretch goal that we are hoping to reach. [laughs]

ROB: That’s pretty fantastic. Obviously you have a lot in front of you; what’s coming up for Avidly or more broadly perhaps, for inbound marketing? What are you excited about over the next year? If we’re sitting down here next year, what are you hoping to say has happened in the past year?

INGUNN: I heard some of the growth plans that our growth manager presented yesterday. Although I can’t go into details, I think it’ll be an extremely exciting year for Avidly, with a lot of things happening.

I also really hope I can sit here and say that we have still a well-functioning agency. Anyone can grow an agency, technically. Technically. But having a well-functioning agency is something completely different, at any size. Even if you’re a 3-person agency or if you’re 300, I want to be able to say we have a well-functioning agency where people feel like they’re being heard, seen, and are growing.

So that’s us specifically. When it comes to marketing, again, I’ve barely gone to any sessions, so I’m relying on the feedback from our Head of Strategic Partnerships to give me a lowdown. But I do think that we will definitely see that shift to having happy customers. Like, how can we delight our customers as much as possible and not focus so much on just driving people through the funnel?

ROB: Yeah, yesterday they had this keynote thing about moving from the funnel to the flywheel. That’s the one session you went to. [laughs]

INGUNN: That’s the one session I went to, so I have to keep referencing it. [laughs

ROB: I’m not sure a flywheel is going to be – we’re in the reporting process. I don’t know if people can visualize a flywheel the same as a funnel. They might still be hooked on the funnel, I think.

INGUNN: I think it’s going to be a huge shift, because we’ve gone so long educating people on the funnel. Although the flywheel makes sense, there were a few jokes yesterday about “yeah, the flywheel is fine, but what about . . .” There were a lot of other versions of it.

I think we have to come together and maybe have one version so that we don’t all come up with something new at this point, because it’s going to confuse the market massively.

Some of our clients get the flywheel and it makes sense to them, but I think it also depends a little bit on your business, because not every company is about retaining customers. It’s about selling that one-time product. So, we’ll see. I’m interested to see where the flywheel will go.

ROB: It’s certainly interesting. A funnel with a lot of patience is what it feels like to me. [laughs] Overall, I feel like HubSpot’s message is not to be transactional, not to be cheap, not to be sales-y. This is the sales-to-marketing versus marketing-to-sales thing, comparing to Salesforce. It’s not to feel transactional. I feel like that’s kind of the message, but how do you see it?

INGUNN: Barbro is our Head of Sales in Norway, and she said, “I buy the flywheel, I get it – but where do people come in?” We’re dependent on new leads, and I get that they come from referrals, but you still have to educate them and you still have to get them bought into what you’re doing, although they will love you as a company based on what someone said.”

So, she said, “I completely see it happening,” because just Monday after we woke up she had two calls from people who said, “I heard about you from this company who’s your client. Can we have a meeting?” Which is great, and it proves the referral.

But we still have to sell to them. One of the people calling, she had still spent the entire summer reading our blog, downloading our content, going through the standard funnel.

Jeppe, our Head of Strategic Partnership, showed me this kid’s toy – and we’re on a podcast, so it’s going to be hard to explain.

ROB: Yeah, we don’t have the visual.

INGUNN: There is a kid’s toy where there’s a funnel on top, and then there’s a flywheel underneath, almost like a watermill. So you pour water in the top – I’m showing with my hands, which is pointless – but you pour the water into the top and then the water that you pour in keeps the flywheel going. He showed this to Brian and said, “I’m sorry, but I think this is it.” Brian laughed. He was like “You need to send me that picture.”

I think that makes sense. You still have to bring fresh leads in, and we’re not going to have enough referrals coming in all the time. So, I think it needs to be a combination of both for most companies.

ROB: Yeah, there’s not an easy way to jump onto a flywheel that’s spinning quickly.

INGUNN: No. [laughs]

ROB: I kind of picture maybe a black hole instead of a flywheel, but it’s a little bit more ruthless. It’s not a good customer-serving visualization to say, “We’re a black hole for sales.” They’ll end up in the middle eventually.

INGUNN: Yeah, that’s almost a bit depressing. [laughs]

ROB: When people want to reach you and reach Avidly, how should they find you?

INGUNN: Again, on Monday morning we launched our launch pad –

ROB: Find you on the stock exchange, dang it, right?

INGUNN: We launched our launch pad website, not complete. We are doing it step by step. But on http://avidlyagency.com they can find our details. Again, we’re on a podcast, so for people to find my name – it’ll be in the description box, I assume.

ROB: You can spell it out. It’s fine. We’ll put it in the show notes too.

INGUNN: Okay, find me on LinkedIn and reach out if you have any questions. I’ll be available.

ROB: That’s fantastic. You have been a fantastic guest. It’s a pleasure to meet you, and I’m glad you spent some time in the States talking to me. Appreciate it.

INGUNN: Thank you.

ROB: Thank you.

Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

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