You Want Customer Loyalty? KNOW Your Customer!

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Alita Harvey-Rodriguez is Managing Director of MI Academy, which offers customized team training programs for businesses interested in “transformative growth” and increasing leads, sales, and customer loyalty. Alita talked about how she started her company . . . and then, on evaluating what she was doing (consulting), determined she was not making the difference she wanted to make (changing the way companies worked). “Don’t Fall in Love with an IDEA,” she warns. “Fall in Love with the SOLUTION – and drive toward that solution. Ideas change all the time.” Yes, the solution has to be “feedback-driven.”

Alita believes innovation has to connect with a customer’s heart. It’s all about “the heart, the mind, the wallet,” she says. Companies have to understand, in depth, who their customers are, before they can roll out an incredible, seamless digital marketing, customer experience – with no “disconnects.”

MI Academy starts with a discovery process – asking its clients about 63 questions across different business units – in order to understand a company’s business, skill sets, tech stacks, and customers; how it uses data to drive decisions; and how to iteratively improve processes and customer experience within that organization – and then provides customized transformational training focused on improving all of the customer touchpoints in the organization.

Alita spoke at Hubspot Inbound 2019 on “The Loyalty Agenda.” She presented a 4-part loyalty program formula based on the philosophy of slowing down (to assess the company, its business, and its market) to speed up (by enabling the company to make better decisions, restructure operations, and change how it listens to and interfaces with its customers). In taking the time to understand their customers and create personalized, seamless experiences, brands pursue customer loyalty and can “carve out brand niches in tough markets.”

Alita is contributing a chapter on sustainable digital marketing practices to an upcoming book. She believes companies need to innovate internally in order to stay on top of customers’ needs.

Alita can be found on her company’s website at: www.milkit.com.au. Her personal email address is: Alita@milkit.com.au

ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m your host, Rob Kischuk, and I am joined today by Alita Harvey Rodriguez. She is the Managing Director of MI Academy based in Melbourne, Australia. Welcome to the podcast, Alita.

ALITA: Hi, Rob. Nice being here. Thank you for having me. It’s really exciting.

ROB: Fantastic to meet up in person. Why don’t you start off by telling us about MI Academy and what makes it great? 

ALITA: What makes it great? Good question. Lots of things, if I can skip right to the end, but I’ll be really specific. What we do is really an untraditional route. It’s not an area that’s often played in, or it’s not really an area that is played in. We sit between the tech providers, we sit between the agency, and we work with a client. We work on educating them, upskilling them, giving them the capabilities internally so that they can roll out incredible digital marketing, customer experience, and innovation programs internally.

ROB: Wow. That’s quite a scope. What are some of the common things that people don’t know that they need to know? What are some of the things you teach them?

ALITA: Oh man, this is the reason why I’m here. Is it slowing down to speed up? My talk is called “The Loyalty Agenda,” which we’ll jump into talking a little bit about. The subtext of that is that slowing down to speed up is a leading business philosophy that’s growing, and this is the main thing that we take in. We’re not going to promise you that we’re going to fix things overnight.

We will start to fix things within the first 30 days, but it’s about taking that step back and not running on that hamster wheel and really understanding where your customers are coming from, how you drive your decisions using data, and how to constantly iterate and improve exactly what you’ve got. We spend so much time in the rat race, just running, running, running, producing, producing, producing, that we forget that we actually have the opportunity and that we can slow down so that we can make better decisions for tomorrow.

ROB: It sounds like you’re not just going in there and selling a class, selling a class, selling a class. It sounds like there is a strategic element even before. It’s like, “What do you need to learn?” It’s not quite so cut and dried. Is there an assessment?

ALITA: Oh yeah. Yeah, there is, absolutely. We start off with what we call a discovery. We ask about 63 different questions across different business units. We make sure that we have input everything from everybody, from the CEO right down to the people that are running the project, the team.

We do that assessment, and then we develop . . . our programs completely customized. It’s not like you’re walking into a classroom. You’re not walking into a training that has been done before. It’s unique to you, it’s unique to the business, it’s unique to the skillsets, and it’s unique to the tech stacks that you use as well.

ROB: So there’s tech training. There’s probably a broader philosophical – if I’m going to do pay-per-click marketing and measurement and that sort of thing. But does it even go a layer more outward into “How do I do, let’s say account management well? How do I do sales?” Are we up to that layer?

ALITA: Yeah, absolutely. We have a world-leading sales training program as part of the delivery of what we do. But this is customer experience. It’s that thing that it’s not just about your pay-per-click. It’s not about just optimizing the performance. It’s not just about UX. It’s not just about conversion rate optimization. The entire touchpoints of your whole business need to be transformed, especially when we’re talking about that CX piece.

ROB: Customer experience. Is that also then a meta layer, a way to slow down? You’re actually going to think about, again, in a broader perspective, how are we trying to interface with this customer before we throw a logo and 10 ads and $10,000 budget out there.

ALITA: Yeah. So what’s the story that that ad is telling you? How do we want people to feel? I always talk about it being the heart, the mind, and the wallet. That’s how we really need to run these things.

ROB: Very cool. What led you to start MI Academy? Where did this come from?

ALITA: Oh-ho-ho. This is really going to come out in my talk. But just for all the listeners, MI Academy came out from me doing nothing, really slowing down. I know it sounds like a really weird concept. I’d been working in my career – I was about 12 years into my career, and I hadn’t really taken a break, hadn’t really taken a holiday. We’ve got our mobile phones we’re attached to 24/7, connected. Especially when you’re really driven, you’re just always connected to that job because you always want stuff to be better.

What happened was I got given a gift to go out on a photography tour. I’d just been given a brand new camera for my birthday, and I went on this amazing photography tour out in the middle of the desert in Australia. You might’ve heard of Uluru or Ayers Rock. There’s no reception out there.

12 years into my career, never been a day without reception. Never been a day without my phone – sometimes two or three phones, depending on what’s going on, what clients I’m working with – and there I am, no phone, middle of the desert. It’s literally like that epiphany kind of thing.

ROB: Somebody knew where you were, though? In case of emergency?

ALITA: Yeah, someone knew where I was. [laughs] For sure. I’d been up at about 5:30 in the morning, climbing this amazing thing called Kings Canyon and watched the sunrise over the top of Uluru. I was tired, and it was nighttime, and I’m sitting there and looking up at the stars, and I’m like, “What are you trying to do here? What do you need to do here?” It was like, you need to help people get more out of they’re doing, because we’re just running this rat race.

I was selling software that was $1.5 million for installation and it was just getting crazy. Then we had a really terrible retention rate because people didn’t know how to think about how to use that software. They bought the sales pitch – which was amazing – but they couldn’t think strategically, creatively, or technically on how they could actually utilize this to fill their customer’s problems.

It was this thought that came to my mind and it was like, “Right, okay, Monday when I get back to the office, I guess I quit and I start this company.” So I did that. [laughs] I made a bunch of phone calls. Sales is something I’m very comfortable with, and I love the thrill of the chase. I started making some phone calls and I got some clients, and I started consulting.

This consulting piece – I was still doing the work for them, so I wasn’t really true to my thought, which was the “how to.” I got about 3 months into it and I’m like, there’s something wrong here. People are getting this great uplift, and then when I finish up that project, everything goes back to normal for them.

I started ringing all of my clients, and I said, “What could I really do to help you? If I trained you to think how we think and how I think and how I read this data and how I think creatively about your customers and how we can dig pieces out, would that be really helpful for you?” The answer was yes across the board.

So I worked with these clients, and we started to develop these training programs. It was really clear at this point that no training program could be the same. It wasn’t going to give them the value that they really needed – because anybody can walk into a classroom, anybody can walk into a seminar, and they can all walk out going, “Wow, I was super inspired. What the ? do I do next?” That’s why it’s customized.

ROB: What kind of clients were you working with when you started to turn that corner from consulting into equipping and training?

ALITA: It started off really with medium-size businesses that were doing a couple of million dollars a year, and then it took its turn probably about 2 or 3 years after that, when we started to win some awards and started to get some really great traction. Then we started working with enterprise, big retailers, big Telcos, and it just took off from there.

We’re in a really exciting space. I think today, especially, we’re in a second era of our tech transformations and capability. Change management is the thing that is going to help these companies succeed, and this is why we’re having such a great time in the market right now.

ROB: That’s pretty interesting. Some of the things you’re talking about – I think customer experience is going to be very durable. It’s going to transcend both of those transitions. I feel like some things changed that we’re still catching up to, like digital marketing, “What do I do?” We’re still upscaling and scaling up organizations to handle that.

But you’ve mentioned now a second wave. What are we going to be ill-equipped to handle in 5 years?

ALITA: If we don’t start getting our capabilities internally, we’re going to stay on that rat race, and we’re not going to be able to innovate. We’re in a space and time where our customers really need us to be innovating. And this isn’t about finding the next Uber, this isn’t about being the next Airbnb, and this isn’t about disruption. This is about innovating internally for your customers about what they need.

ROB: What are some recent examples that you like of the experience-oriented but not earth-shaking – it’s not a self-driving drone that’s going to take you around, and it’s not rocket ships – which are cool.

ALITA: They are cool. [laughs]

ROB: But what are some more subtle, but meaningful versions of that? Anything from a client you can share would be fantastic.

ALITA: Sure. We were working with a client, and it was an old incumbent business. They were a massive wholesaling company. They’d had ecommerce for maybe 5 or 6 years, and the site looked like it was built in 1992. It was brown and green and yellow; it was disgusting. It did a little bit of revenue, but the bulk of it came from the wholesale side of the business.

Met with the team and the CEO and they’re like, “How do we grow and how do we market this thing? Because we’re getting this new website done,” blah, blah, blah. They were like, “We’re new school.” I said, “Okay, what does that mean to you?” They’re like, “We’re online.” I’m like, “Newsflash: people have been online for like 20 years plus at this point.”

ROB: Yeah, you’re new to the school.

ALITA: Yeah, you’re new to the school, but being online and selling your products online is not new school. They were shocked a little bit. I said, “Great, now that we’ve established that you’re not new school, you’re new to the school, we need to talk about how we’re going to connect with customers’ hearts.”

They brought in their products, and their products were wrapped in plastic. Then we did a lot of work around really digging out of them who they really wanted to target, and who our most profitable segments would be to launch to, to create volume and noise.

In this time, we started understanding that it was people who were health nuts, that they were paleo lovers, that they were mums and parents and young, in their twenties, and they were health-conscious people and fitness people.

Then we looked deeper under that layer, outside of the demographics, and started to think about how they really think about themselves and how they position themselves online. We started digging in to customers’ profiles and seeing what they were liking on Facebook and what they were connecting with. A big majority of them really cared about the environment – and we’re selling them a product that’s wrapped in plastic. There’s a problem. There’s a massive disconnect between what we’re doing and what our customers’ heartbeat is.

At this point, talking about innovation that’s going to connect with their heart, we started to think about and come up with a volume of ideas and show these guys how to come up with ideas. We’ve got the data; now we need to come up with ideas that’s going to help us to solve a problem. We had a couple of things that we wanted to do.

One of them was, when we launched, we wanted to have a way to create instant loyalty. Most people, when they launch, they spend a lot at the top end of town and they’re really heavy in acquisition. Big problem. Then we dug deep and we came up with I think like 200 different areas with the entire team, and we narrowed them down, narrowed them down. We tested three different ideas.

The ideas were around recycling. How were we going to get our customers to send us packaging back so that we could reuse it? Couldn’t do that; there were a whole bunch of health regulations around that. No problem, that’s fine. So that was one idea that was not going to work, but we had to really dig deep and find out what ideas were going to work.

One of them was that we were going to ask people to recycle, and we were going to drop them a code online. But then there was no guarantee that they were really going to do that.

What we ended up doing, and the solution that worked, and the one that we tested and had the greatest growth, was that we would send out a prepaid envelope, and we teamed up with an expert and well-renowned recycling company in Australia. We’d send out the reply paid envelope. We had this beautiful card that went out with every package that said, “Hey, if you send us back five, we’ll give you this much, ten – we’ll give you bonuses every time you send your packaging back to us, and we’ll take care of the recycling.”

It created this beautiful reciprocity with the customers and what they really cared about. In terms of what happened online, it wasn’t just that we launched with our top-end campaign. We launched with the small database that we had. The database grew overnight. Loyalty was about 60% within the first month, and it just took it by storm.

This recycling program was that small innovation that changed loyalty for the company and helped them to focus, and reduce their cost of acquisition as well.

ROB: I can imagine that one thing that would be tricky when you’re contemplating launching that campaign is thinking about the people who are going to come out of the corner of the internet and they’re going to say, “Aren’t you shipping stuff to save the planet?” They’re going to ask. You know these people are coming, right? “Didn’t you spend more bad for the environment on shipping stuff than you gained from recycling?”

ALITA: I’m so glad you asked that.

ROB: In those internal discussions and thinking about it, how did you get comfortable with taking them on, being secure?

ALITA: Thanks for asking. That was part of the innovation. We looked at who we were going to partner with as part of our carriers, and our carrier for shipping was a carbon-neutral company. So we dug deep into those buyer personas and we started thinking.

One of the things that we do is start asking those questions: what are our skeptics going to say, and how do we neutralize that or how do we get them on our side so they’re at least a fence-sitter at this point? So that was one of the things that we come from understanding what the skeptics are, not just what our positive buyer personas are going to be.

ROB: Right. It seems like some of the key benefits from thinking about CX correctly, you’re going to have happier customers. In some cases you’re going to have more volume of sales. In other cases, you’re going to be able to be more profitable, and maybe there are some other big dividends you see from CX.

How should clients think about – first of all, is there something else they should be thinking about from a value perspective? And secondly, there’s going to be some people, your financial people, who are going to want to all go to the profit bucket rather than the happiness bucket, etc. How should people think about where those different value dividends pay out?

ALITA: We use what we call a 5 Metric Growth Formula in order to help us to work this out. Shifting the needle by 10% on retention – and this is about retention. That happiness bucket is about that retention piece, and it’s reasonably easy. It is easy to create a business case.

When you look at it from a financial perspective, we understand what our lifetime value of the customer is and how we’re going to increase that. How we’re going to decrease our cost of acquisition of marketing, because if we have a strong database – and we’re seeing changes all over the world. Facebook’s just about to release that they’re not going to allow retargeting anymore. There’s database pieces.

ROB: And they might have likes too.

ALITA: Yeah, but I’m okay with that. [laughs] But this is about creating that loyal customer database that you own. When we’re looking in the retail sector, we’re looking at $7 value per email address that you own. So it’s pretty easy to say to the finance guys, “Let us tick the happiness bucket. Here’s the business case.” And when we’re talking B2B it’s about $500 bucks.

ROB: That owned data trend is such a big one to contemplate. It’s absolutely necessary to think about. I’m curious here – I imagine you do a reasonable amount of your business in-region, in Australia and New Zealand and such.

ALITA: Yeah.

ROB: So what should the rest of us think about if we’re looking at doing business in Australia from a data privacy perspective? We have GDPR and then we have states in the U.S. that are trying to do their own thing, and some states that don’t care at all. What’s the native status of privacy where you are?

ALITA: We’ve just recently had an inquiry into our privacy status in Australia, and the findings were that our current privacy laws were considered – the word “weak” was used, which is concerning. Prior to the GDPR, we had one of the strongest privacy policies in the world.

So there’s been 22 recommendations that are being done, and the world is now watching what Australia’s going to do. Why? Because we’ve taken our time to slow down and think about these things. Done a lot of research. Even the policy creators who created the GDPR are looking back at us and going, “Australia, what do we do next?”

So if you’re looking at coming into Australia, be on the front foot. This is about being transparent about how that data is going to be used and how we as consumers can turn that on and off.

ROB: Interesting. That is pretty helpful there. So you are giving this talk – and I think we probably got into a lot of it – about “The Loyalty Agenda” and slowing down to speed up. Have we covered some of the key points already? Where’s this talk going? What can we take away from it?

ALITA: I’m going to talk about the high level stuff. First of all, I’m going to be talking about what happens to us as human beings when we slow down in our corporate environments – about creativity improving, stress levels reducing. I’m going to talk about a study that was done in Sweden. Then I’m going to talk about what happens at the business level.

And then I’m not just going to leave you with this high level thing. One of the comments that I always get about my talks when I deliver these at conferences is “you actually give us something that we can go away and make a difference with.” So what I’m going to be giving you at the end is how to run a loyalty program that is driven by slowing down, speeding up, and listening to your customers. It’s a 4-part formula that I’m going to be sharing with everybody on Wednesday. 

ROB: Wow. Stay tuned. We’ll have to see if we can link out to the slides when this podcast actually hits.

I’m thinking, as you mention loyalty, along the data a privacy lines – we’ve been talking about loyalty in general, but good loyalty and bad loyalty – the problem essentially with Facebook is they’re appealing to bad loyalty. They’re appealing to pushing the button in your brain to drive dopamine.

ALITA: It’s like gambling.

ROB: Yeah, bad loyalty there. Or vaping, etc. How do you think about, or do you really touch on, the morality of loyalty and that some loyalty might not be such a grand idea?

ALITA: I’m not going to talk about that, but it’s definitely a topic worth exploring. Yeah, it’s such a good point. There is such bad loyalty, and it’s those brain tricks that get played. I guess if I’m being really honest, there is that point where loyalty could become manipulative when our personalization becomes so tight and so unique and we start to look in that buying propensity and start running our models off that. It can go into a tricky area.

This is the thing about constant iteration and constant improvement. We just want to make sure that you’re always slowing down to talk with those customers about what on earth we can do to help it be better for you. That’s where we can override and overcome those bad things.

ROB: That’s a great point. By starting from customer experience to get to loyalty, you’re not valuing loyalty the most highly. Loyalty is a reflection of the customer experience.

If you’ve thought about the fact that research says that when people use Facebook, they’re less happy when they’re done, that would worry you from a customer experience perspective, even if the numbers show them to be more loyal. So that’s maybe an interesting lens to think about it through, that CX lens.

ALITA: Absolutely. But this is the same thing that happens with any kind of innovation, I guess. We talk about how Airbnb has disrupted the hotel industry and has completely changed the way that housing prices are operating around the world.

ROB: For sure. You have been working the MI Academy business for a little bit now. What would you do differently if you were starting it over today?

ALITA: Ooh, good one. What would I do differently? I wouldn’t fall in love with the idea. I’ve learnt to fall in love with the solution. I think when we start a business or we come up with a strategy, we fall in love with this idea that, “This is definitely what’s going to work, this is definitely what people need,” and then people are like, “Well, no, not really.” Then you can get sad.

So it’s about really focusing on that solution, being in love with the solution, and constantly driving towards that. Because ideas change all the time, and that’s got to be feedback-driven.

ROB: Right. I would imagine one thing that’s probably tricky in your business – you have a presence. You are out in the wild, speaking. So a lot of people probably, when they have a problem they want to solve, they probably want you. And that’s good, from a client perspective.

ALITA: Yeah, it is good.

ROB: But sometimes it’s also not good from a client perspective, because there’s one you, and people solve that different ways. How have you thought about the challenge of the personal brand versus – do you want to grow the business? Does it limit the growth of the business? Or do you grow it in a different way that’s more meaningful?

ALITA: About maybe a year ago, we really started to hit our heads. It was like, “We want to work with Alita. She’s the thought leader in this. This is her brainchild. She’s the one who knows how to get this driving.” Even though my team is amazing – they’re incredible and they’re being trained by me, or they’ve come with a wealth of experience running amazing programs with other brands. That’s one of the things; I only hire people from industry with a lot of experience.

But you’re right, it’s like, “I want to work with Alita.” So what we did was went and consulted with other major consulting firms and found out about how their pricing model works.

Now our pricing model works that if you want to work with Alita, you pay a super premium. Depending on if you’re working with a department director, they’ve got another premium, senior, and then we’ve got our consultants.

Different to consulting businesses like Deloitte or something like that – their consultants are usually an intern or something like that, that they’re charging out, which is a nice juicy rate and which is fantastic because these interns get great experience – but our consultant levels have been in the industry for a minimum of 6 years.

ROB: So they’re getting somebody good and experienced no matter what, and if they really want you, you can control your capacity by what the rate is for you, and it probably also helps you focus energy into how to develop your people so that people feel like they’re getting value for money, so that the rate you can charge for a consultant is also meaningful to your business and for the customer.

ALITA: Yeah, that’s it. We’ve also got something that we call the Hybrid Model. You can have my brain on your account, but I will not be delivering it. I’ll be the leading strategist. I’ll be working with our curriculum developers and their consultant to help to develop their program.

ROB: Okay, they get like a little fractional brain retainer on Alita?

ALITA: They get a little bit of Alita. [laughs] Yeah.

ROB: Just the sample version. Fair. What are you excited about that’s coming up for yourself, for MI Academy? Other than your talk which you have not yet delivered.

ALITA: Yeah. What I’m really excited about is the conversation that’s happening at an enterprise level. I think in the last 6 months, even less, we’ve seen it flip out of “we know what we’re doing” to “oh my gosh, I don’t think we know what we’re doing, but we kind of do, but I’m not sure, so can we have some outside help here, please?”

This is part of that second era of that tech transformation that we’re starting to see, and volumes are coming out of that. We’re seeing Magento 1 starting to be phased out. This is that second era of transformation that’s coming out. Even people who are using HubSpot and don’t know really how to strategically roll out marketing automation programs. “We’ve got this great bit of kit; we’re paying a lot of money for it. Please help us make some money from it.”

I think that’s what I’m really excited about is that shift in conversation and how we fit into that – not into that agency, “we’ll do it for you,” but “we’re going to do it with you.”

From an MI perspective as well, I think that’s really what I’m excited about. We’re growing constantly. It’s really nice to have a beautiful, great partner network that we’re working on, which is really exciting. And just seeing the team grow and the clients grow – I say to everybody, we don’t want to work with people who don’t want to produce case studies with us. Which is so exciting.

It’s also about finding that right fit of customers. If you are nervous and you want to do stuff yesterday, we are not for you, because their expectations are not realistic. There’s something that they need to do before they come to us. They need to be prepared.

ROB: Yeah. If you want to provide some sort of HR credit for continuing education to check a box in your organization, that’s – nope.

ALITA: No, no, no. If you want to make a real change and empower your people to do great stuff and think about how they can be happier at work because they are doing greater stuff, then yes, absolutely, we are 100%.

ROB: You had mentioned before in our pre-conversation that you had been writing a little bit. Are you able to share much about that?

ALITA: I’ve been asked to write a contributor chapter to a book. It’s guaranteed to be a bestseller; the publisher is sharing this information with me, which is really exciting.

My contribution is around digital marketing. It’s challenging because digital marketing changes all the time. This is the thing. Google releases 400 changes every year, tiny little ones, constantly. And I’ve got to write a book that’s got to be about digital marketing and how we can keep up with that? What? How’s that going to happen?

So, what I did was I said to them, I’m not going to write about tips and tricks and things, because the algorithm can change tomorrow. Man, if I wrote about retargeting or lookalike audiences, forget it. That’s not going to work for us at all. Lookalike audiences already aren’t working, from what we’ve seen and the testing that we’ve done, especially over the last 6 months.

I had to really write about sustainable practices. Some of the stuff that I’m sharing about that customer experience piece is what’s coming in there, and I’ve written a big, juicy piece about database, how to grow it, and how to get the most out of it.

ROB: Right, because a customer database is durable across techniques and tactics. Even now, if you want to feed it into a Facebook or a Google audience, you can.

ALITA: You can.

ROB: If you want to look like it, you can, but you might not want to anymore, to your point. And you can email – unless something changes. But there’s always going to be a way and other data that you can connect it to.

ALITA: Absolutely.

ROB: That all makes sense. I wonder – one person we had on the podcast was in the publishing business, with the Non-Obvious Guide books, which are pretty interesting, and he was saying they’re actually linking out to some of the resources that are likely to change.

That’s an interesting tactic. But it may also be – he runs the publishing company, so if he’s planning a future cost to keep on updating content, maybe his publishing model actually makes that work, versus some publishers might not really want to keep investing in a website over time.

ALITA: Yeah, sounds like it.

ROB: Little FAQ.

ALITA: Yeah, I like it.

ROB: Has there been any talk about some sort of digital resources that people could turn to? “These are tactics that actually work now instead of 3 years ago”? Or just wait for the second edition?

ALITA: Yeah, I think we just wait for the second edition. I’ve tried to write everything that’ll be sustainable and transferable. It’s been written, keeping in mind that H2H, human to human, as opposed to B2C. Because it is focused in the B2C market.

ROB: Alita, when people want to find you and MI Academy, where should they find you?

ALITA: They’ll find me at www.milkit.com.au. And dare I say, my personal email address is Alita@milkit.com.au. I’d be really happy to hear from you.

ROB: Right on. And hot tip for everyone who’s wondering here: the “firstname@company” is a pretty good way to reach the people who started it, right?

ALITA: [laughs] Yeah, absolutely.

ROB: Usually works, because we’re all full of it. I’m “rob@convergehq,” etc. Thank you, Alita, for coming on the podcast, for sharing your talk and your experience.

ALITA: Thanks so much for having me, Rob.

ROB: We will look forward to the book as well.

ALITA: Cheers. Bye.

ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

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